Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Welcome to 2TravelDads Podcast. Here we share our favorite destinations, travel tips, stories from our adventures, and bring on awesome guests to share insights into their travelsome lives. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and check out our detailed show notes at 2traveldads.com/Podcast-episodes hey, welcome back to another episode of 2TravelDads Podcast. I am Rob, who is your host for everything, and today I have one of my favorite guests back with me to chat about yet another awesome project. I've got Colleen here, and if you have been listening, last season she was with us to talk about, um, her artist in residency that she did multiple times at Acadia National park. And then we also just talked about being a professional landscape photographer and how that is a part of her. Um, so today we are going to dig into something even more exciting. I'm really glad that we can finally record this podcast episode because it's been sitting on the back burner for a while. Um, we are going to talk about her new book, which is her narrative memoir, which is my favorite type of reading or writing to read, and it is called so said the river. And Colleen, welcome. Thanks for coming back on.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Hi, Rob. Thanks so much for having me back. It's always a great time. I'm excited to talk with you today.
[00:01:42] Speaker A: Yes. So, yeah, so said the river. Let's just jump right in.
What is, if you were going to describe, you walk into an elevator, right? You walk into an elevator, you meet somebody totally random, and you see that they have a really good tan. Like, they've been out on the water for days. How do you break the ice with them to say, I have written a book about my life experiences.
How do you introduce your book to them?
[00:02:15] Speaker B: I love that you're asking an introvert this question, because my first reaction to being in an elevator with a stranger would be like, hi.
But, I mean, I would start by asking, you know, where they've been, what they've been doing, what are they up to? I mean, if they're by the beach, like, what are, like, what do they love about the water? And then I might sneak in that I have a fear of water. I had a fear for 40 years of water where I couldn't see my feet. But all of that changed.
All of that changed nine years ago for me. And so that might be how I would break the ice. I don't know. That might be a little awkward.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: No, I think that's a great icebreaker. Something where you find that common ground before you start really, like, opening up, but, yeah, we've got that common ground, and I've read your book, so let's talk about that.
So I really enjoyed reading so said the river, and it was very interesting to me because some of the themes and, like, kind of, like, the personal development and also, like, just the stories of which I'll let you tell, stories that you want to tell, the stories of your specific adventures, each one of those things kind of hit me differently. I cried multiple times while reading. There's just. There's certain things that you talk about that very much resonate with me and my life and having to grow as a person and grow independently of other people, all that stuff and the way that you were able to talk about what it is like becoming an adult and becoming an independent human who is living your life, you were very eloquent, and it was very interesting. So what is. Yeah, so, so what is so said the river. You know, said, it's a narrative memoir. Tell me or tell everybody else what you.
[00:04:20] Speaker B: Mean. Above all, it's. It's an adventure story, and it's an adventure story with the Colorado river, but it's also kind of adventures in life. And basically, after 40 years of relentlessly pursuing perfection, achievement, and success without finding happiness, I, who was recently separated from my. My husband, attempted with my mom to stand up paddleboard across Lake Powell, which is a reservoir along the Colorado river on the Utah Arizona border. And, like life, the trip did not go according to plan. And so the book talks about how. How do you find fulfillment when you're navigating life's hardships? And kind of the metaphor throughout the book is, how do I become, or how do we become? You become humans become a free flowing river when we run into a dam and life tries to turn us into a reservoir. And so through my adventures, especially out of the storms, in the rapids, I discover that maybe happily ever after sometimes looks different than what we have been told. And I challenge beliefs. I challenge fears. Like water.
I try to find my way to living an authentic life where my voice matters the most to me. And so I am hoping that it inspires others to find kind of their own definition of that authenticity for themselves, of success, what success looks like for them. And really, I just want to inspire confidence to people who may choose or have already chosen kind of non traditional ways to live our life. And so, you know, there's a lot of right answers out there.
We all can have a different one, and they can all be right answers. And that's what I hope to encourage.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's so. It's funny, so I know how my brain works, and I don't get super deep and introspective trying to find meaning in lots of things. I just kind of take things at surface value and see what speaks to me. It was really fascinating at, you know, going through and reading and hearing your voice, because, you know, I can hear you speak as I'm reading, which is. Which is fascinating. You know, for all the books that I've read, there's not a lot of books where, like, I can actually hear the author and understand their tone. Um, but with you, I was. I got it.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: But, no, that's good.
[00:06:47] Speaker A: Yeah. But it was interesting, though, because, um, the way that you really did draw that symbolism and pairing up the water and the fear that you had and the things that. That lurk beyond the bend and just how that is so much life, and you kept on tying that back together, it was really poignant.
Thank you. Yeah, no, it was. It was. It was really interesting. Especially, I think, that the part that. Is it okay that I talk about specific parts.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: Absolutely. You go for it. Okay. Yes, of course. So, one, because I love to hear what you have, what you think of it, so. Absolutely.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: So when. When you guys, you know, when you hauled out there. So part of this. Part of the story, as it goes, is, you know, you and your mom paddling on Lake Powell, which, by the way, so last month when I was at Lake Powell and the Glen Canyon dam and all that stuff, it felt weird that I just read your book, and then I was there and you weren't there, which is why I was texting you while I was there.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Cause I was like, yes, I know. I so wish I could have been with you.
[00:07:52] Speaker A: I felt like I was missing out on not just the experience, but I felt like I needed somebody to share that with. And I was there with a bunch of people I didn't know, and you were my missing puzzle piece for that.
[00:08:04] Speaker B: We'll do it again. We'll figure out a time, and we'll go back.
[00:08:08] Speaker A: Yeah. But, um. So. But the. The part that really. The first part that really kind of jarred me was, you know, you and your mom, you're stand up paddle boarding, your mom's got her kayak going along. And then when you guys made the decision to, you know, haul out and call it and not continue on that whole process of, you know, being at that campground of warming up in the bathroom and just the raw kind of emotion that you feel and how you guys connected and how you told that part of the story, that was my favorite part of your storytelling was that whole section with you and your mom and the way you guys wrapped it and the general attitude that you each had, because it was. It was so different for each of you. And do you feel like as you were writing that, was that something that you rewrote 50 times or you sent it to your mom and you're like, is this how this happened? Like, did I. Do I. Did I capture your emotions? Like, what was that part like? Because for me, that was one of the toughest parts of the book to kind of read, just because I. I understand that sort of thought process and action.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. I mean, so at that point in time, I had essentially was trying to come to terms with failing not once, but twice. And I. You could put failing in air quotes now, but at the time, I, you know, as a. As a perfectionist, you know, not having my life, my marriage go the way that I thought it was going to, and then taking a trip to cope with that and that not going according to plan, you know, sharing with that with my mother was very, very special. I did not care for the parts where we got in trouble, which was very, very scary.
But the aftermath was maybe the most critical part of this. Like, so it's where the unraveling happened. And I think when we were in camp, I don't know, like, that. That last camp after we had gotten rescued, um, at Hall's cross, when we were at Hall's crossing, I don't know that, like, I fully comprehended the magnitude of. Of the impact of not finishing at the time, I was perceiving it very differently. I was glad that my mother was alive. I was glad that we were both alive. And there was, you know, like, there's some symbolisms in. In the book about, like, the warm shower and, you know, the ice, you know, the ice forming the next morning, and just like this. This kind of back and forth. And we have. And even after that, I have a chapter. Chapter 13 is reentry. And reentry was possibly one of the hardest chapters for me to write. I think the one where we were in camp, it was a little bit calmer, so I didn't have as much trouble with that. But 13 is when I came face to face with myself for the first time and really started to have truthful conversations.
I was, you know, when I was trying to cheer my mom up and make sure that she was okay. First and foremost, when we were. We were in camp. But it really wasn't until we made it home that I feel like my full blown emotional unraveling happened.
[00:11:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: And I was not. And honestly, you know, my mom. I want, you know, my mom's one of. She's my most special person in the whole world. Right. And besides my dad and my brother. And I didn't want her to feel disappointed that the trip had ended early, earlier than we had planned. I wanted her to feel like she was the badass that she was. Right. And so I kind of had to go home before I could have my full emotional meltdown and really start what I consider as my own healing at that point.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And so. And a little bit of background for anybody who is listening and hasn't got a chance to read. So said the river yet, because right now it's not out yet, but, you know, you'll have the chance to read it.
So. So a big portion of Colleen's book is about her and her mom setting out to paddle. What is the length of Lake Powell? 144 miles or something?
[00:12:28] Speaker B: We were going to do 141, depending on water level. It can be plus or minus that, but it's essentially, you know, averaging about 150 miles, depending on where you start and end.
[00:12:38] Speaker A: Like, that's. That's an intense trek on the water.
So a good portion of this book is talking about, you know, kind of prepping for this and coming up with the plan and just what it means to conquer such a thing. So when we're talking about, you know, having to, like, call it quits midway through, that's. That's what we're talking about. We're talking about the most epic things and accepting that things don't go away the way that you hope or plan. And, um, so the. The other part of. Of all of this was, you know, getting back out there, was it chapter 13 where you guys then are making the plans for, you know, doing the Colorado river through the canyon, or that.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: Comes a little bit later.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: Okay. Okay.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: Yeah. So, 1314 and 13. 1415 and 16 are me kind of coming to terms with not finishing the trip, and it literally spans the actual length of the trip, which is really kind of coincidental.
But then we start to plan again in chapter 18, getting back on the water together to go see the other side of the dam, which is through the Grand Canyon, through arguably one of the most beautiful stretches of the river.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so thinking now. Now that you can, like, sit down and look back across this whole. These. All these different experiences, and then also now having written it all out. Do you feel like putting all of these experiences on paper has really helped you kind of, like, process that period of life much more? Do you feel like there's still some raw stuff that maybe you want to put in another book sometime? Where are you at right now with this whole journey? Because it is really just like this continual evolution.
[00:14:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So in trying to formulate an exciting adventure around a specific theme, there were many stories I couldn't include. So there are plenty of stories left to put in future books.
This book, I mean, I changed because of the events that I describe in the book, but I also changed and transformed and challenged my beliefs through just the simple act of writing the book. And so, like, there would be a section where I would start writing, and I would be like, wait, do I really believe that? Is that really what I want to believe? Is that. And so I would challenge it as I was writing it down, and it's like, well, wait, is that the person I want to be? And, you know, as a writer, you have to be like, okay, how is the reader going to actually interpret this? And is that the right interpretation? Is that what I want them to hear? And so, obviously, you can't control what people interpret, but, you know, making sure that I was delivering exactly what I was trying to. To say in my own world. And so the process alone of writing the book has. Has transformed me in very positive ways. So it's not the river's voice continues in my head. Right. She lives on. She's everywhere.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: Something I think is really interesting that you kind of started to, like, get into there for a sec is when you are writing something that is your story that is about yourself.
I do the same sort of thing where I reread it, and I think, is this actually, am I just trying to sound like a writer right now, or am I. Am I trying to say that I've taken more from a situation than I actually did, and I find myself doing that. Did. Did you feel like that kept on coming up? Like, am I over interpreting my life?
[00:16:25] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I'm an overanalyzer anyway, so, like, that's really easy for me to do. And so I think the most important thing that happened was about two years ago, I read some advice. That memoir was an argument, and you're the example. And so when I received that, when I kind of received that messaging, I kind of transformed it, I hope, away from navel gazing and really overanalyzing and trying to make it an actual story where there's universal themes, and people could get something out of it beyond just, hey, guess what? Colleen went stand up battleboarding. She went with her mom. It didn't go as planned. You know, like, I really wanted this to have an impact on readers in a. In a positive way, hopefully in an inspirational and an uplifting way. So that's. That's how I wrote it.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny. So I had my friend Angie on, and we talked about her book that just came out last month. And one of the things that we were chatting about during the podcast episode was, you know, working with an editor, and that first time that you're sharing your. Your manuscript with somebody else and kind of that process, that feedback, that first kind of, like, call and responsive. Here you go. Tell me your thoughts and kind of accepting what somebody else's impression is. Did you, do you tell me about what. That's what that was like for you with your editor and the people like that you've trusted to read it?
[00:17:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
So I actually love the editing process. Like, love it, love it.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. It's the most stressful part for me.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: I'm not. Oh, God, no, no. That's, like, one of my favorite parts because that's, like, when. That's when you get, like, really great ideas, and that's when you get, like, challenged, and that's when you're. Anyway, for me, it's a great way for me to get out of my own head. So I actually love the editing process. I think that is very much in part because I have an amazing editor, Eric Berg. And Eric and I worked together at intel back in the day before, like, my photography, we worked on the same team together and same software projects. He still works at intel, and so.
[00:18:33] Speaker A: I left just a side job. Editor.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And so. But he is a remarkable writer in his own. In his own right. He's done books before, and he's done many articles, and he researches like crazy, like no one else I ever, like I've ever seen before. Like, he's just, he's just remarkable at it. And so I trust him to give it to me straight. And he's very authentic. He's very funny in his edits, and so he really makes the editing process, like, very enjoyable for me. I have. I started editing this, this manuscript back in 2016, 2017. I actually thought the story was over. The story was not actually over into 2021. And so he's read this in development at it, like, six or seven times. Poor guy.
And then, of course, there's the copy edits and the proofreading and all of the other things. So I mean, he's probably read this ten times in variety of forms and it has evolved. The joke is that it's kind of, my book is kind of like a theseus paradox where like the paradox is that if you replace all the wood on the boat, is it still the same boat? And so the joke is that if you replace all the words in your book, is it still the same book? And, and for me it's not. I mean, it has a totally different title. It's like it has an actual arc, it has themes, it has like, anyway, so it has, it has evolved tremendously since the 2017 1617 timeframe when I thought, oh yeah, the story's done. Haha, it wasn't.
[00:20:09] Speaker A: Well, and that's an interesting question though. So with that, because it is about, you know, personal growth and your own learning along the way through all these different things, do you feel like your book has resolution or do you feel like maybe I need to just like go a little further or I should have gone a little further? Maybe I do. Yeah. Maybe a second edition.
[00:20:35] Speaker B: I believe that this story has, has a definitive end. No spoilers, no spoiler alert. But this part of my life, this chapter of my life has concluded. And so there is plenty more on tap. But this particular story has a very specific beginning and a very specific end. And like I said, not going to give it away, but the epilogue will hopefully show that the story has a conclusion. Yeah.
[00:21:05] Speaker A: Good. Another question for you, kind of more on the business side of things because I know that you are a self publisher.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:14] Speaker A: And you're doing that with so said the river as well, correct?
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yep. Sure am.
[00:21:18] Speaker A: So how are you doing that differently than say your Acadia book or other projects that you have been a part of that you've done with other photographers and writers. What's, what's different about this type of book in put to publication?
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So I mean from like a process or procedural perspective, from a publisher perspective, it's really, it's really the same.
[00:21:39] Speaker A: I mean we, this is the part I always think is really fascinating.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I know. I love this part. I actually love everything about the book publishing process. So like it's really fun to talk about, um, and geek out, Oliver. So thank you.
Um, from like a structural process, it's kind of the same. So like, you know, you write the book, you get it edited and then you sent it to a printer and then it gets printed and you proof it and you print it. And so like, that part's pretty straightforward. Um, so that's pretty familiar. I think the biggest difference, for me at least, the biggest thing that I've tried is that I have released it to people like you and others who I trust with their opinions and value and respect their opinions to read it before it comes out. And so that advanced review copy, the arc process has all been very, very new to me, and it is pretty intense, actually. So I've had to log on to new software and get new accounts and connect with people like I never really would have before.
It's been incredibly rewarding. I'm not quite through all of it in the thick of it yet, but this is just a different beast. And my audience is significantly larger than my guidebooks. And so, yeah, it's just a matter of trying to get the word out as best as possible. And I just started that a lot earlier with this particular book.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny because marketing and getting the word in advance with books now has become so very important. Especially, you know, if you're. If you're really seeming gonna be on like, bam or Indigo or Amazon getting those kind of advanced reviews and pre orders has become so important to the actual online sales success. So, hopefully, yeah.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: And I'm. I'm less concerned. I'm ultimately less concerned with being like, my goal is not to be on Amazon's bestseller list or whatever. I just want to connect with people and I want this book to help. And for me, the. The mindset that I have going into this is that I would rather this be a marathon for me. I don't want it to be a three month sprint. And I know that the book industry tells us that, you know, the first three months are the most important, but I also am writing a book about, so they say. And so I am trying to do things a little bit differently. I think it has worked for me in the past with my guidebooks. And so I am trying to embrace my own, my own, what I think is best for me and what I think is best for my book and what I think is best for readers over time. And so I am less concerned with the numbers and the lists and the like. I mean, that's the whole, that's kind of the whole point of the book.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: So, yeah, I think that's something that's really special about getting to self publish versus being, like, in a top five publishing house.
So when I did my last book, I had this whole team that was at my disposal and going to make everything successful, and they just vanished. Oh, no. And so, but also, like, they're the ones with all the resources. So I wasn't able to like, really act on what I thought was the right thing to do because also we had a procedure that we were supposed to follow, so it was this weird thing. So that's so cool that you get to do what you think is going to work and that you can manage and you can use your resources.
I love that. And I know that you're an effective person.
[00:25:07] Speaker B: So, yeah, it's hard. It's hard work. It's a lot of work there. It's a lot of work. But it is also extremely rewarding and very freeing. I mean, I get to do it exactly the way that I want, for better or worse. And it's. Yeah, I take a lot of pride in.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: That's awesome. So when specifically can we look for your book and where is the best place for us to purchase it and to send people?
[00:25:34] Speaker B: Yeah, so it is scheduled to come out in mid June. It goes to the printer May 1. So I will know specific dates once that happens. You can learn more at ww dot sosaidtheriver.com and you can pre order. You can order when it comes out. I'm going to have both the hardcover copy and an assigned copy from my website. And then also the ebook PDF. Eventually I will have the ebook on Amazon and audiobook as well. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna kind of dip my toes into audiobook. I've never done it before, but I am super excited about it.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: It's an interesting process. So that's awesome.
We'll have all the links for everything. Also on 2traveldads.com and in the podcast show notes as well, so that anybody who needs to find it can. Um, yeah, I've got two more questions for you. And then I think. I think that's it for this topic.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: Who do you feel like this book most speaks to? Who is going to do you feel get the most out of it? Who's your target demographic with releasing this?
[00:26:39] Speaker B: Well, it's funny because I wrote it for kind of middle aged women who are overachievers, perfectionists, like independent minded kind of women who enjoy the outdoors. Um, but what I'm finding is, is men in that same demographic are finding a lot of value out of it. So I would say kind of middle aged people who tend to value achievement and success maybe haven't found the happiness that they feel that they were promised by society. And so I would say anybody who's looking for a good adventure, outdoorsy paddleboard. You want to paddleboard with me? Come on, jump on the board.
And maybe anyone who is familiar with the Colorado river and the issues surrounding that watershed, I think it would all, anybody who's going to get value out.
[00:27:27] Speaker A: Of good, broad audience love it.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and you're not supposed to write a book that everybody likes, you know, but it is a, it is a pretty broad audience. I think anyone who just wants some inspiration to live the life that you want to live is going to find. Find something in there.
[00:27:43] Speaker A: And then my last question for you is book tour dates, specifically, when are you going to be doing book signings in St. Augustine, Florida?
Not too specific of a question. And maybe funny you should ask.
No. Are you, are you going to be doing schedule, are you going to be doing any sort of tour or scheduling book events?
[00:28:05] Speaker B: I am. I have already scheduled my very first one in Durango in July, and I am in the process of working with a good number of other bookstores right now, specifically in the southwest. However, I have friends all over the place like you, and I would love to come to Florida. In fact, I wrote that down last night. I would love to come see you in Florida and do a reading and assigning and maybe even we'll go paddle boarding, maybe.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: I would love that.
[00:28:32] Speaker B: Wouldn't that be fun?
[00:28:33] Speaker A: We're effective people. We can make that happen.
[00:28:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: Cool. Thanks so much for joining me again. I appreciate it talking to you. And if you missed it, this is Colleen with so said. The river comes out in mid June. All the information is in the show notes and on 2traveldads.com. Thank you for joining us. And everybody tune back in because we have more episodes with Colleen where we dig into Acadia, the southwest, you name it. So thank you so much for being here today and we'll talk to you later.
[00:29:04] Speaker B: Awesome, Rob, thank you.
[00:29:05] Speaker A: Have a great day.
[00:29:06] Speaker B: You, too.
[00:29:08] Speaker A: 2TravelDads podcast is created by Rob and Chris Taylor in St. Augustine, Florida. We'd love to answer your questions here on the podcast, providing both our experience and, and stories. To share our own insights into whatever you're wondering about, visit 2traveldads.com/podcast-episodes to leave your questions and to check out past episodes and show notes. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button and have an awesome day.
